Alan says, "Second paper, Suzanne-McKenizie - Informed Consent in Virtual Reality" 
Alan says, "A performance piece - she says she hyperactive - says to do something obnoxious if you can't here her. " 
Alan says, "hear her" 
Dria says, "this all has to happen on so many levels" 
zone falls to the floor and makes a huge clattering noise...she can't hear Suzanne... 
Dria collects the clattery zone in a cluster 
laurie says, "so we would need to define our view of the situation, and figure out what the nonuser view is, and see the problem as being the distance between the two." 
Alan says, "quotes Aristotle, then JS Mill, then Nietzsche" 
Alan says, "interpretation begins where perception ends" 
Dria says, "nietzsche, indeed." 
zone smiles...appreciating Alan referencing unheard quotes...beautiful... 
laurie says, "and then our design and implementation would focus on closing the distance." 
zone smiles radiant text 
Alan says, "another quote, says guess, betcha don't know, Thomas Kuhn, she says she comes from Cyberspace, the new home of mind, asks you from the past, leave us alone, you are not welcome among us, you have no sovereignty, you do not know our culture" 
Alan says, "or our unwritten codes" 
Alan says, "quote from John Perry Barlow now." 
Dria says, "laurie: um...that's almost too simple...it's deeper than that, more fundamental.  Society and technology will change each other, it's just deciding, democratically, where we want to be." 
Alan says, "brief "brief overview about what constitutes an online community" 
zone opens her mind to pure pleasure of open-ended suggestion of unspoken quotes... 
Alan says, "asks if we're a savvy bunch" 
laurie says, "but also where we want other people to be. we can't leave out the necessity of persuasion" 
Dria says, "we can't decide for other people where they want to be, they have to decide for themselves." 
zone asks Alan, "does anyone say they're savvy?" 
Dria says, "education, not persuasion." 
laurie says, "education is persuasion." 
Alan says, "I guess so, she seemed to find all of us savvy..." 
zone smirks...hmmm... 
Alan says, "talking about MOOs now, Lambda MOO at the moment - not only the first MOO, the most loved and most denigrated of MOOs...." 
Dria says, "persuasiona nd education have differetn motives." 
Alan says, "boasts of being the first cyberdemocracy" 
laurie says, "we show them where we think they ought to be. we made them think they want to follow us." 
Alan says, "talking about cyberrape" 
Alan says, "the Julian Dibble article at the moment" 
laurie says, "not really--re persuasion and education..." 
Alan says, "MOOs now used for a multiple of purposes, etc. etc. etc.  - gen. description of MOOs" 
laurie says, "persuasion and education are only just trying to get others to see and understand things the way we do." 
Alan says, "talking about IRC, other forms of Net communities, newsgroups, etc. just quick summaries here." 
Dria says, "but persuasion connotes a deeply alterior motive, education is for the betterment of both." 
Dria says, "ideally, at least." 
Alan exclaims, "WE JUST CHEERED CYBERMIND FOR SOME OBSCURE REASON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 
zone smiles... 
laurie says, "not necessarily. i think they both can be positive and negative." 
Dria exclaims, "YAY CM!!  Woo!" 
Alan says, "Talking about MOOs, MUDs, MUSHs, etc. - back to that." 
Alan says, "The outsider will always remain the outsider unless these homes become homes for the netizen - you have to experience them." 
laurie says, "persuasion: raises awareness, changes attitudes, prompts to action. that's the definition we use in my composition classes." 
Dria says, "I guess it depends on yer pov.  I see advertising as persuasion, education as givhe ability to think critically and make decisions  on that basis."
Alan says, "talking about the media and their use of pedophile/pornographic/etc. soundbites." 
Alan says, "soundbytes" 
Alan says, "soundbitten." 
Dria smiles at Alan. 
nana has disconnected. 
laurie asks, "does one do education to someone, does one do it for oneself, does one have education done to oneself?" 
Alan says, "I usually got it done to me." 
Dria says, "education takes many forms.  All of the above, some more effective than others.  Depends on who you are." 
Alan says, "Talking about ethcical considerations, the cultural milieu called postmodernity" 
A very large pelican scoops nana up in its enormous beak and flies off to drop it in bed. 
Alan says, "Who are the denizens of of cyberspace." 
laurie says, "persuasion's the same in my opinion. education just sounds more ethical." 
Alan says, "white upper middleclass, etc." 
zone continues to be amazed that Alan can stay so conscious to relay this information... 
Alan laughs. 
Dria says, "heh...well, I see persuasion as having a distinct purpose & as done with intent." 
Alan giggles 
zone nods...amazing... 
Dria says, "Alan's my hero." 
Dria smiles 
Alan says, "talks about taking the same attitudes of rl to cspace" 
laurie asks, "and education isn't done with intent? why do I teach my students if not with intent?" 
Martin has connected. 
Alan thinks Dria needs to be put away :-( 
Alan says, "We are not you is the battlecry resounding across the bandwidth - Suzanne says." 
Martin says, "Alan is doing a completely fabulous job of multitasking...." 
Dria says, "not *all* education is done with intent.  I'm learning here...and no one is intentially *teaching* me.  Pesuasion is always intentional, has to be." 
laurie asks, "is learning the same as education?" 
Martin runs back down to the conference room. 
Alan says, "Talking about Fractal connecting to the MOO - she's giving a textual reading of a MOO session, more or less - I am sexless because I am neutral, etc. - but I engage in sex (reading what Fractal is saying) -" 
zone . o O (..."we are not you"...but who is the "we" in cyberspace...?) 
Alan can't wait for Martin to return ehre! 
Dria says, "hm...good question.  Um...no...learning is the result of education, but not all learning is the result of education." 
laurie asks, "oh, you mean this suzanne is fractal?" 
Alan says, "Probably, come to think of it _ i think that's the case." 
laurie says, "i tend to think of learning and education as being distinct. learning being the individual process of knowledge-making. and education being a social activity aimed at incorporating the student into society." 
Alan says, "education - 'drawing out'" 
Alan says, "educo, educare etc." 
Dria says, "I guess that's if you consider education to only be that which occurrs at educational institutions.  Education, in my mind, should (doesn't, but should) teach the invaluable skills of critical thinking.  Persuasion ain't that, by a long shot." 
laurie says, "my dictionary says to lead forth." 
Dria says, "yeah, but dictionaries only give the denotative meaning, you can't go by dictionary definitions alone, particularly in such a socio-cultural process such as education." 
Alan says, "This is the Panel: Law and Ethics in Cyberspace, Suzanne McKenzie on Informed Consent in Virtual Reality - the screen is being projected - a discussion of prohibitions and regulations on the Internet at the moment - a performance, laws - whether they can be carried from real life to cyberspace -" 
laurie says, "i don't really agree. one *learns* critical thinking. one isn't necessarily *educated* into thinking critically. I've tried with my freshmen. all i can do is to persuade them to undertake processes that might enable them to learn it." 
Dria asks, "education = process, learning = product.  ?" 
Alan says, "Martin is back here - we're changing the projection apparatus at the moment but I think I'd be still remaining online" 
laurie says, "and they're capable of going through the pedagogies that are designed to educate them in  critical thinking without learning how to do because they just go through the motions." 
laurie says, "no, more like education=external, learning=internal" 
laurie says, "education is what you do on the outside in the hope that the student will learn something on the inside, which is why i equate it with persuasion." 
Dria asks, "and self-education?  That which one does to oneself?" 
Alan says, "Talking about letting the virtual world govern itself." 
laurie says, "yes, i think so. one sets up one's situation so as to allow for one's own leanrning." 
Alan says, "That the real world should let things alone here. We've mucked it up there so why the hell would we want to do it here." 
Dria says, "I guess the problem I have with 'persuasion' is that it sounds so much like the person doing the persuading *knows better* than the persuadee.  Education, ideally, should be different.  Dialectical process of learning-teaching for both the..." 
Dria says, "student(teacher) and the teacher(student).  " 
Dria waxes Freirian 
laurie says, "YES!YES! isn't that what we do when we put a teacher at the head of a class? your ideal is good, but it's not education as it exists." 
Dria says, "well....yeah, I know :)  Education, in it's current state, bites.  :>" 
laurie says, "we say the teacher knows better than the student. the persuader knows better, knows more than the persuadee." 
laurie says, ":)" 
Alan says, "A" 
Alan says, "Alan is absent temporarily ..." 
laurie says, "aww, come back alan." 
Dria looks at the absent Alan, loving the irony of it all.